Sam: So, how you been buddy?

Alex: I’ve been okay, been pretty good. I’ve got a to-do list a mile long and the stress is mounting, but I feel good, you know? Been happy, been excited about life, so I think things are good.

Sam: Yeah. You still doing work with the conservancy?

Alex: I am. Not for much longer, however.

Sam: Why?

Alex: Well, I’m currently in a temporary position. They only had enough in their budget to offer me a temporary position up until November, so that is about to come to an end at the end of this month, so I’m still looking for full-time work — or at least more seasonal work, more part-time work, maybe multiple part-time jobs.

Sam: You want me to come out to Frisco. Do you think that’s the right move for me, and why?

Alex: So, I noticed that I shared a lot of the same sentiments as you did, just from talking to you, from the last time that you came out here. I felt like I felt similarly in New Mexico when I had just graduated — that I felt stagnant and like there wasn’t a lot of opportunity or options and that, you know, here I am at the end of six years, two degrees, and I can’t get a job.

Sam: Yeah, you can’t even find a full-time gig. Yeah, that terrifies me.

Alex: Exactly. So, I felt like when I got to move to San Francisco and I got the opportunity - luckily I moved with a job, knowing that I was going into a job - San Francisco just offered me a lot. There’s opportunity and there are options. And then also I felt like the fresh start - I’m in a good place for somebody who’s trying to figure things out and trying to do the hustle and bustle of getting into the professional world.

Sam: I mean, you’ve only been out there for a year but it sounds like you’ve really kind of hit the pavement looking for work. What has been your general experience looking for work?

Alex: In New Mexico, when I was looking for jobs, there would be like one job in journalism or there would be like four jobs in the service industry.

When I’m out here and I look for jobs, just within San Francisco, which mind you is only seven miles by seven miles wide, I’ll find hundreds of jobs, hundreds of openings in different areas. Out of those hundreds, I feel like twenty of them I would be qualified for and would actually probably want to do.

Sam: So do you feel like you’re just working to live or working toward something?

Alex: Ah, excellent. So I feel like, at this point, because things have gotten a little rougher, I’m not working that full-time position that I was working at the beginning of the year, that’s over, I’m working a part-time position now at, like, pretty much the lowest wage you could get.

Sam: Part-time, with two weeks left.

Alex: Yeah, part-time with two weeks left, exactly. I feel like I’m working hand to mouth, right? At the top of my to-do list, which just shot up to the top today, is to call unemployment and find out what happens in November when my claim is over. Are they going to be able to reissue my claim and am I no longer available to accept …

Sam: Oh, so not only is your part-time gig going to end, but you’re going to be literally like in a boat in the middle of the ocean.

Alex: Yeah, on my own, totally. No government help, no anything. Just my savings, just whatever I have in my savings, which I’ve already started to eat into, and what’s in my checking account. And after doing calculations, like, last night, I actually am already unable to keep up on my loan payments and my rent payments out here.

Sam: That’s terrifying.

Alex: It’s frightening. But I don’t feel like, if I was unemployed for a month, that I wouldn’t be able to find a job. I realize now that what I’m doing is I’m looking for kind of the top scale of my job qualifications — something that’s going to pay me at the level that I want and is going to be within the work range that I want to do. I don’t look for, you know, just standard entry-level service jobs. I feel like I could go down the street and get a job at the frame place around the corner from my house.

Sam: I mean, just talking to you, you know, just the idea that you’re collecting unemployment still definitely makes me hesitant. And, you know, just the cost of living.

Alex: Yeah, moving out here, I realize it’s not just as easy as, you know, being like, “Yeah, all right, I’ll go.” But I feel like there’s a lot of opportunity if you’re willing to kind of bust your ass for awhile until you find something that works.

And then those can be really, really beneficial sometimes, those experiences where you're just kind of working through and figuring it out, and then “boom,” something opens up, and suddenly you’re — you know, this is an amazing city, man, if you look at the list of businesses that are headquartered or started here, you’re like, “What? Oh my god, all these people, like, all these companies.”

Sam: And, I mean, I guess I could do it in Boston, but, I don’t know, I’m just angry.

Alex: Exactly. And that’s really what I want the most for you, is for you to make a change that makes you feel positive, because then I feel like you will be in a better place in your life. Because depression will kill you man.

Sam: Yeah, I know.

Alex: So, I just want you to feel good about yourself, and feel good about life, and feel good about the things that you’re doing. And that’s the biggest change that I feel like has occurred for me, moving out here.

Sam: Yeah.

Good evening, this is Sam Mackin. This is Thursday, August 9th.

Today was a much better day than yesterday.

I got up, I didn’t work out, but I applied to two jobs, one of which is a product placement writer for a company based out of Framingham, is where the job was. I got a confirmation email, they said they’ll get back to me in two weeks and I also sent out my resume and a cover letter to a facility management position in San Francisco, which basically just sounds like maintaining a warehouse, but it’s money in the bank and it’s benefits and it’s in a beautiful, beautiful city, so there’s definite benefits to it.

I definitely made choices that brought me to here, but I feel like the choices that I made weren’t particularly bad choices. The thing that drives me crazy is, you know, all through elementary school they told me I wasn’t going to make it through middle school, and then all through middle school they told me I wasn’t going to make it through high school, and then when I got to high school they told me that I wasn't going to make it in college. And now I’ve graduated college and I’m not making it. Which is really frustrating.

But, like, today, the first people that I served tonight were this older couple. And right off the bat I could tell that this woman was just going to be rude, and she was. She was just unnecessarily rude. All night. It drives me up the wall, where people are just rude to you because there’s this sense of superiority. That sucks.

And then, you know, something like that happens at the beginning of the day, I mean that was my first table of the day and it’s like, all right, I want out of here. What did I do that makes these people think that I deserve to be treated that way? Like, you know, I’m a degenerate of some kind, who made all these really bad life choices and that’s how I got into my position. And I don’t think that’s the case. You know, I stayed in school, I did my work. I mean, I could have done better but I don’t think that the choices that I’ve made allow for people to treat me that way. I don’t know. I’m tired of putting up with that, I don’t want to do that anymore. I’m the worst waiter. I do not want to be waiting tables.

So, yeah, that was my day today — rude people, not enough money, still stuck. How come I haven’t earned anything, except ending up in a situation that I spent years trying to avoid?

Sam: Hello?

Sean: Hello.

Sam: Hey.

Sean: Sam?

Sam: Sean?

Sean: How are you?

Sam: I’m good, how are you?

Sean: I’m doing well.

Sam: That’s good.

Sean: I’m sitting here in front of a board with a bunch of faders and buttons. Life can’t be that bad.

Sam: I am too, it’s weird.

Sean: So, what are you doing now?

Sam: The way I pay the bills is I work as a waiter in a restaurant. I also work as a stringer for a local paper.

Sean: Which one?

Sam: A tiny, tiny paper in a tiny, tiny town in Massachusetts called The Lunenberg Ledger.

Sean: Lunenberg, I’m familiar with Lunenberg.

Sam: Are you really?

Sean: In another life I was in a sort of shtick theater for kids and corporate parties and we had a juggler named John from Lunenberg. I don’t remember his last name. Juggling John.

Sam: Get out of here. People in Massachusetts don’t know where it is.

Sean: Yeah, I know. They don’t know where my town is either, it’s Millis. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that.

Sam: No.

Sean: See, we’re mutually ignorant about each other’s small towns. So you’re doing some modicum of journalism now.

Sam: Yeah, very, very low level. I do selectmen’s meetings and I did a feature story last week. I mean, that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do journalism was at least to have an interesting conversation with interesting people. But how did you get to where you’re at?

Sean: So it was an accident, and I think that it’s often an accident with folks in public radio. I didn’t know what I wanted to do and, you know, I liked to read and I liked to write. I went to Indonesia for a year and wrote art and movie reviews for the Jakarta Post. So that was my sort of foray. But, like, I didn’t know anything about art.

Sam: How did you find that?

Sean: You know, I got out of college, I didn’t know what I wanted to do, and I think I was like in a similar place where you are now, like, I just felt like I needed to do something drastic. So, at least when I got back to the states and was still looking for jobs I had that to say. But I really had nothing else to say. And then there was an internship that opened up at WBUR, where I think you’re sitting right now.

Sam: That’s exactly where I'm sitting right now.

Sean: So I interned in the newsroom and pretty much fell in love with it immediately. And that’s when tape was actual tape, like, it was reel-to-reel tape, and you’d pull the tape out and cut it with a razor blade — mark it with a grease pencil, cut it with a razor blade, and actually have this physical object that you then hand off to the producer in the studio and they, you know, rack it up and play it.

And then, you know, it was just little by little, any hole that they needed to fill, I would sort of dive into it. And I started treating it like grad school that I was getting paid for. So that I was like, “Well, what’s this over here? Maybe I could learn how to be on the air, they seem to need overnight announcers.” Learned to do that; learned how to be an engineer, so I was working all the equipment; I filled in as a call screener on one of the call-in shows; and just like every little thing.

And, so, through sheer, sort of, control freakishness and also not knowing any better that, like, I didn’t necessarily have to do this, I just sort of learned how to do every part of what’s involved with making radio stories. And then along the way I was also pitching stories to This American Life and All Things Considered — and then that took a long time. I think I pitched like ten stories to This American Life or something over the course of like a year or a year and a half, and then finally had one on. That opened a lot of doors.

Sam: My dream job when I graduated was to move to Spain and basically do what you did in Indonesia. You know, find an English language paper, do that for a gig and then be able to be a stringer for the AP or Knight Ridder — someone who would take my copy or whatever.

Sean: What happened to that idea?

Sam: Well, I graduated and, you know, I was living in New York and I couldn’t find a job. I mean, I was trying to work for the local paper where I live is the Journal News in Rockland and they wouldn’t even talk to me. And I was like, “Well, that’s not good.” Because to me, at the time, I’m like, “Well, that’s so low level.”

Sean: But what happened to the idea of, like, just going to Spain and finding a paper?

Sam: Money.

Sean: How old are you again?

Sam: 27.

Sean: By all means, like, if you have nothing, you know, tying you down in the states and money is the only obstacle and I know it’s easy to say," It’s the only one," and it’s difficult, but, like, I would just treat it like a story. You know, turn it into something that maybe you would write about in a newspaper — like, how does this work, how can I get there?

Sam: That’s the whole bit, like, I don’t even know where to start.

Sean: I think it’s just sort of a matter of deciding, “Okay, I’m going to try this.” I feel like the majority of folks who do what I do started as interns.

Sam: I did apply to an internship at Radiolab.

Sean: You did? When was that?

Sam: Yeah, two months ago.

Sean: Well, apply again. But it doesn’t have to be Radiolab, like, it’s funny, I mean I’m doing this now, but I was a news intern and then I worked in news for six years, and then was doing, sort of, longer-form more evergreen documentaries after that, which is more akin now to what I do.

But I think the first thing is just to learn the first thing. I mean, figure out how radio is made. And I think the best way to do that is to find a place where they would be willing to show you.

Sam: Mhmm.

Sean: This is going to sound impossibly cliche but I think the bottom line is: Don’t let go of your dreams no matter how silly they may seem, and don’t think they’re silly.

Sam: That’s one of the problems that I had, that basically since I graduated it’s been like — do you know who Eddie Izzard is?

Sean: Yeah, of course.

Sam: The comedian. He has a whole bit about growing up and having dreams and he’s like, you know, “I want to be an astronaut.” And they’re like, “Well, you’re British, so tone it down a bit.” And he’s like, “Well, I want to climb a ladder really high, then.” And they’re like, “Well, you’re British, tone it down a bit.” And he’s like, “I want to be a sewer worker,” and they’re like, “Well, okay.”

You know, and, like, that’s definitely the best metaphor I have for my post-grad experience, which is, like, “I want to go to Spain and be a reporter.” And it’s like, "Yeah, well, the economy sucks so you’re going to have to do what you can. And I mean, I’ve worked every bizarro job in the world just to keep afloat.

Sean: But in this metaphor, who is the “they” telling you to turn it down a bit? It sounds like you are the “they” telling you to turn it down.

Sam: It probably is the me telling me to turn it down a bit, but I mean, I don’t know — that’s true. That is very true.

Sean: So screw you, man. No, I mean, tell your inner “they” to go away.

Sam: Yeah, the inner doubt to go. Yeah. That’s true. Thank you so much for taking the time out of the day to talk to me, and know that I’m envious of your job.

Sean: Well, thank you.

Sam: And if you could give Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich a high five for me, I‘d really appreciate that.

Sean: I will give them both a high five for you. This will sound weird, I’m also envious of you, your wide expansive possibility, and the future being a giant question mark is actually …

Sam: It’s kind of freeing?

Sean: It’s very exciting, looked at one way.

This is my last audio diary, so it’s much more of a reflection. I apologize, I have a cold.

When I first started out, I was kind of apprehensive and weirded out just to kind of expose myself in the way that, you know, I needed to — to kind of take a third-person view of my life. I don’t think of myself as the most open individual, so exposing myself is something that’s kind of out of character for me.

But I thought it was important and I still think it is. I think the thing that I’ve taken away from this is that I know that I’m not alone. You know, it’s not like what I’m doing is abnormal, which I think gives me a sense of solace, knowing that this is, you know, something that’s much larger than me.

I just spent last weekend hanging out with a bunch of really old friends from high school, we all swam together. And, you know, everybody else is doing pretty well. And they all worked really, really hard for it, and they’re also all really smart and mathematics inclined, which I definitely think helps. But yeah, me and my buddy Cerise, I think, are the only two that were there that are kind of living at home, you know, working multiple jobs. And while I was with that group, I was kind of very self conscious about my position and the amount of money I make and what some would call superficial stuff.

But, you know, you want your friends to be proud of you and I’m embarrassed to talk about my life in front of people. I usually don’t. I don’t even talk to my close friends about what’s going on in my life.

Yeah, it’s good to know that I’m not some sort of freakish loser who has missed the boat.

I do kind of feel that I have missed the boat and, you know, my future is very much ambiguous, but it makes me feel a little bit better to know that I’m not taking part in something that is alien, that there are other people that are going through something similar.

Yeah, I think that’s it. I’m happy I’m not alone and, you know, I’m just going to have to figure it out.